Speaker A: Welcome to the Autism and Neurodiversity podcast.
Speaker B: We’re here to bring you helpful information from leading experts and give you effective tools and support. I’m Jason Grygla, a licensed counselor and founder of Techie for Life, a specialized mentoring program for neurodiverse young adults.
Speaker A: And I’m Debbie Grygla, a certified life coach. And maybe most importantly, we’re also parents, parents to our own atypical Young Adults. Friends. Hello. Welcome. We have a friend on with us today. Her name is Shayna Abraham, and she is a therapeutic consultant based in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and she is the founder of the Therapeutic Consulting Association, or TCA. And she’s also a founder of the Alt Fair, which is an alternative to college fair. And she’s been working with adolescents and young adults and their families to make wise treatment decisions for more than two decades. She’s very experienced and she’s passionate about helping families see that not everyone is meant to take the same path, but whatever path is right for them, we can walk by their side. And I love that. And we’ve worked with Shayna and she’s a real leader, and we’re just grateful to have you on. So thanks for joining us, Shayna.
Speaker C: Yeah, thank you guys for having me.
Speaker B: We’ve been working with you for a few years now, and we’ve had a few students at our Techie for Life school here. And I’ve always appreciated your insight and your experience and especially your love and passion for what you do. You take it serious. You’re a true professional. So we’re thrilled to have you on and you have some specific insights from your experiences that most people won’t have and that they can benefit from. So we have a few questions for you. I think the first would be maybe you could explain in a nutshell for our listeners that don’t know, but what is a therapeutic consultant?
Speaker C: So my role as a therapeutic consultant is to help families navigate their treatment decisions. And so where I differentiate from an educational consultant is families are hiring me when the therapeutic needs are on the forefront and the academic needs for their child are secondary. So regardless of their age, right, whether they’re a child, an adolescent, a young adult, we work with all age ranges, but they’re finding me and hiring me to help them architect a plan for their child when something therapeutically is taking the driver’s seat. And then I stay with families through the duration of a treatment process and helping them plan for what happens next. Treatment programs are wonderful, but if you don’t have a plan for what happens afterwards, things tend to fall apart pretty quickly. So that piece of things is as important as getting a family to the right type of intervention. And so part of it is staying involved for that length of time.
Speaker A: You’re kind of that common thread as they go through the process.
Speaker B: You’re talking about treatment for anything from mental health related like suicide, anxiety, but also addiction recovery. What types of things does that cover?
Speaker C: So I’m part of a team. Our practice has four consultants. And so we work with all sorts of mental health issues. That could be neurodiversity, it could be substance abuse, it could be failure to launch. We work with attachment disorders. I’m just thinking of some of the common things that are coming up right now, also some of the thought disorders. So psychosis and schizophrenia and really it’s a matter of for a lot of the families when they come to us, it’s looking at what’s going on currently, what are the diagnoses that they’re coming to us with and understanding is that truly the total picture or is there more going on or something that hasn’t been diagnosed? And once we kind of pull back the layers of the onion, we can understand what is being treated and what needs to be treated.
Speaker B: Moving forward, a lot of our listeners aren’t necessarily able to afford or find programs that are going to be treatment or therapeutic base. So hopefully a lot of the things you’ll be able to share today are just for the average family that what can we do? And hopefully we’ll be able to talk about some principles and philosophies there. So some of our questions are the first thing would be you work a lot with families where they get them through high school or they barely make it, or they made it, but they know university in the traditional academic degreeseeking, experience is not going to be the next best step for them. Tell us a little bit about what you’re looking for to rule out university right away and maybe some of the things you recommend instead.
Speaker C: So what I’m looking at is how has the child done up until that point? And so I’m looking at did they get through high school in a mainstream setting? Were there other interventions that needed to be put in place to help support them through that? Were there alternative schools that were needed to be accessed? Whether that was through an Individualized education plan in the public school setting, accessing private schools, looking for additional outpatient therapists? What was the plan that helped this person reach the point that they’re at now? And how much of that was initiated by the parent versus the child themselves? Because that’s going to help give us a really strong indicator of are they going to be able to go into a less structured setting in a college setting where nobody’s holding their hand to say get up, go to class, do these things? Are they going to be able to navigate that on their own? I’m also looking at do they know who to ask the questions of? Because if you have a question and you don’t know where to go with it, you’re not going to do anything with that. And so that’s another indicator for me of is that individual really ready to be in an environment where there isn’t the same level of scaffolding as they might be accustomed to.
Speaker A: And I think that’s a really important piece because you can’t just assume, and I think a lot of parents do well, you just go ask somebody if you need help with something. But a lot of the adults, young adults that we work with, they don’t have that skill set. They freeze it up. That’s terrifying. Or they don’t even think that I can go ask for who to ask. I mean, there’s a lot of maturity and development that has to happen for someone to be able to reach out and advocate or get the support that they need. So that’s like an important thing. You can’t just assume, well, they should know how to do it, or even.
Speaker C: Knowing where to go.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker C: So student support services is one element, but you may not need to go there. You may be able to access just the professor directly. And knowing the difference between when do you need to go to one versus the other. That’s a critical skill that I don’t think we’re developing in high schools anywhere that I know of.
Speaker B: How hard is it to tease out how much the mom and or dad or the parental figure got them through high school versus, well, yeah, they they graduated and they did all these things because that seems to be an important piece for them to leave and have to go do it at college. Do you often find parents under reporting what their involvement was or over reporting what their involvement was or frayed or just not sure?
Speaker C: I see both. So I definitely see the under reporting where a parent says, I just did what everybody else does for their kids. I also work with kids who they usually have a better read on it than their parents do, more often than not. So when I talk with the young adult and I say, so how much of this was you versus mom and dad kind of pushing you through? They’re the ones that are pretty honest and can give me a really good gauge of, no, my mom did my homework every night. Okay, that’s good information. Or I might have you know, I have a young woman that I’m working with right now who’s in a treatment program, and she’s really advocating for her next step to be something where there isn’t as much scaffolding because she wants to know how much she can do on her own. She doesn’t know because she’s been in a scaffolding environment. So I do see both sides of it. I think for parents, it’s really important and really difficult to take that look at themselves and to justify or to see how much of this is driven by them. For everybody that has a child, there’s this idea of what post high school is going to look like and be like and looking at that and looking at your child and getting really clear on is that your hope for them or is that truly what they need and they want at this point?
Speaker B: Yeah, we’re always talking about ego ideal. And an ego ideal doesn’t mean egotistical. It means what is your identity, what is the ideal? And it’s really hard for parents. It’s hard for me to separate out my ego ideal for my child versus their ego ideal. And I think that’s pretty common. I think it means we care and that we’re invested and it’s just something to manage.
Speaker A: And I’ve coached many parents on when we’re talking about maybe challenges or struggled or they’re trying to get their kid to do something. And what it really comes down to is they’re wanting their kid to be able to do a certain thing because that means they’re a good parent or…
Speaker B: It means that my child will be successful based on my expectations of what success is. And I think college is one of those. It’s been ingrained in us, my generation for sure, that college is the thing. And I think in a lot of ways it is. It’s not that that’s wrong, but it’s also no longer the only litmus test for success in life. So what are you seeing as far as alternatives and changing in people’s mindsets about once they graduate high school? I have to go to college.
Speaker C: So I will say I am a crusader to change the narrative. What I’m seeing is it’s slowly changing. And now at least the term gap year has been integrated into some people’s thought process, but they have to go immediately to college. There can be a gap in time. What I don’t see shifting and what I really am trying to help shift, is that there’s a rainbow of opportunities out there. It doesn’t have to look one way. There are trade schools. There are young adult supportive programs like Techie for Life. There are different kinds of short term programs that are for coding or there are pathways to the trades. There was an article actually that just came out this week on NPR about how desperately we need folks going into the trades. So really looking at what is it that is going to be fulfilling for this young person? And I love what you’re saying about removing that ego from it. And there’s no judgment with this. It’s really just a matter of what is going to be the best fit for each individual.
Speaker B: One of the reasons we like to use taking classes at the university, it’s not even for the degree they need development and experience is the only way to get development. You can’t just wait for age. And I’ve had young adults say, well, my mom and dad said I could take a gap here, which means a vacation here, and I don’t have to do anything. Can you explain a little more about the philosophy of a gap. Here what that actually means.
Speaker C: Yeah, I think that’s the difference of maybe what a gap year could look like. That is one way of just having an unstructured year to figure yourself out. When I talk about a gap year, what I’m really talking about is a year of development. And so that can be taking classes that can be working, that can be traveling abroad. That can be something else. A lot of the work when I’m meeting with a family and talking about a gap year with them is identifying what are the skill sets that need to be developed so that we can look at where are those skill sets able to be developed?
Speaker B: Yeah. So then I think, well, why are we calling it a gap year if it almost assumes that college then has to happen after the year is done, instead of just well, if it’s just about development and university may not be the path, why don’t we just call it a development year or transition year or I don’t know.
Speaker A: Well, it’s a gap between maybe whatever vocational educational you’re going to take on.
Speaker B: I agree. I just want parents to understand that a gap doesn’t mean take a vacation. It could mean that, but right. We’re interested in developmental experiences and what that would help them with. All right, well, what are some of the fun ones that parents probably haven’t heard of for getting a year of growth and development? What are some interesting maybe that people wouldn’t know?
Speaker C: Yeah, there’s a lot of things that have actually sprouted up more recently. There’s a newer program for neurodiverse young adults to travel abroad with other neurodiverse young adults. And so that’s one that’s really kind of a cool opportunity. There’s programs all over the world. This is the other thing that I think parents may not be aware of, is there’s programs in Spain, there are programs in Puerto Rico, there’s programs in Costa Rica. Right. So just because your child may have some different needs doesn’t mean that they have to be in a particular spot and really looking at, again, what are those areas that they want to develop and what are some of their passions? Right. So if I have a client that comes to me and says, I love surfing, all I want to do is be in the water, great. Let’s look at a place where you have access to that, whether that’s San Diego or out in Puerto Rico. But really looking at where can we mesh joy with these areas of development gets us kind of into that sweet spot of also not hitting against resistance.
Speaker A: And that’s huge first for autistic and neurological angles, actually making it appealing and attractive instead of, like, scary and freeze…
Speaker B: Up or feel like a chore. But there’s nothing wrong with them being excited about their next step. I love the fact that if they go do something different than what’s comfortable when they’re out of their comfort zone, but not overwhelmed. Their brain literally learns physiologically, neuropathy wise, that they can do different things. And then even if they stop doing that new thing, they’ve learned that they can do new things and that transfers into all areas of life. So just doing hard things, new things, different things, especially for neuro divergence is really important because they love to be lowest common, denominator, comfortable, familiar. And just as an example, they love what they know and is familiar. And when they get home sick, it’s not necessarily because they just want to be with mom or dad. It’s because they miss the familiarity of schedule, the smells, someone’s doing my laundry. But I also like my set up in my room. I like everything the way it’s always been. And it’s important for them to get out of that rut.
Speaker A: Yeah, I think there’s a real benefit too to having because for a lot of our autistic and neurodivergents, they’re barely keeping their head above water in high school. It’s kind of a high pressure situation. It’s a really kind of an intense schedule, if you will, with classes and different things and then the social environment and then to get a little bit of a break because a lot of them are like almost an overwhelmed autistic burnout. And so to get a break, but to still be having developmental experiences and kind of getting like a recharge before they go into something where there’s like a commitment again and you got to show up and there’s a lot of expectations.
Speaker B: A good example that probably would be for families who can afford an expensive program would be go live with grandma and grandpa and aunt and uncle or a cousin where they’re no longer in their home. But getting out of the home is really important. Statistically. That’s the most important thing that can happen for someone who’s neuro divergent and wants measures of success. Holding a job, having relationships, succeeding in college is they have to move away from home. So I think that’s a big thing.
Speaker A: Just in that to do that and then add another thing like changing up the environment.
Speaker C: And I think that’s a big thing for parents too, right. Nobody is going to be like mom and dad. And that can be really scary. And I think that’s a lot of the work when I’m working with a family that I’m doing, holding the parents hands to say it’s going to be okay, it’s not going to be like being with mom and dad, that’s okay. That’s what we want now. Right. And so also focusing on the ways that parents have to make those adjustments, allowing their kids to grow in those ways.
Speaker B: Yeah. Let me switch it up for a second, explain a little bit. What advice do you have with parents? What are you seeing as some of the hardest roadblocks for parents who are trying to figure out a path forward for their neurodivergent loved ones. What’s hard for them? What are they doing wrong, for example, or what would you want them to do different?
Speaker C: So I see a lot of things. First of all, I think parents get stuck in we can’t change things because things are going so well. And when things are going well, because it’s usually taken a long time to get to this place of being in a steady place, there’s a fear of making too many changes and rocking the boat that gets really dicey because that also means stagnation. And so I’m challenging parents frequently to look at this as an opportunity for growth, as opposed to a place where we’re all going to walk on eggshells and hold our breath and hope that it just stays good, because it’s good right now. So that’s one thing. The other is holding boundaries that are appropriate and not being scared of the outcome. Because most of the parents I work with have lived through rocky times with their loved ones. They get to a place of they don’t want to go through that again. And so holding a boundary or an expectation with their child that feels like it’s going to disrupt the boat feels really hard. And so in a way, a lot of the work that I do is helping parents to, one, identify what those boundaries are for them and then to implement it. And they can tell me and practice with me a thousand times, and I can come up with every scenario and every pushback because I’ve heard it all and help them practice. What is that going to look like? I think loving too tightly is probably the hardest part because I don’t work with parents who don’t love their kids. Every single parent, it takes a different shape and a different form. Every single parent loves their child. It really comes back to, how can you love them and allow them to grow the way that they need to?
Speaker B: It comes back to, we hit it all the time that if you love your child, you give them what they need, not what they want. And that’s hard because it’s not what they want right. Or not what we want. Right.
Speaker A: What they need.
Speaker B: Yeah. With neuro divergent females, we find a lot of parents that keep their daughter home, but they’ll send their son off because they’re so protective, and sometimes it’s more for the parent and for the child.
Speaker A: I can empathize with parents, and yet it really is going to be okay.
Speaker C: I think with girls, too, it’s much harder because a lot of times when I meet clients and I tend to see adolescent girls who have not yet been diagnosed as being on the spectrum, and there’s a very typical pattern that I see a series of diagnoses leading up, and I can kind of go, okay, we might be headed down this path. And I think because girls present differently. They tend to be more compliant, they tend to be more internalizing, and they may have just a very different presentation than what we’ve classically talked about as being on the spectrum. It’s also very hard for parents both to accept the diagnosis and then once the diagnosis has been accepted, to then say that things need to look differently.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: There’s extra nuances and challenges in that whole dynamic.
Speaker B: One of the things a lot of our parents struggle with is finding a community that can be there to support them and be cathartic. And I’m wondering if you can speak a little bit to what you recommend to parents who have been enmeshed and or helicopter parents with their neurodivergent loved one and they need to cut those apron strings. What do you recommend to get out of that or to transition into the next phase, which is getting away from the parent child role relationship into a healthier, I don’t know, adult to adult.
Speaker C: So I am a big proponent of parents finding parent support groups. We run one with our practice, Prepare to Bloom. There’s Nanny, which is free. There are lots of them out there to choose from. But I think it’s also important for parents to go and live their lives. Go on vacation, go find friends, go find a passion, go do something that brings you joy and really creating that life outside of just what’s going on with your child. So that there is community and there are people that get it and there is a place of support because that’s going to take the parent into a place of being able to hold those boundaries. Yeah.
Speaker B: I watched one mom, and I think this is a unique individual example that it’s very personalized. But when her child finally left home and she could just take a big breath and let all the pressure go, she went back to drinking. She’d been sober for years for her child’s sake because she wanted to be strong. But once she no longer was needed, she went back to drinking. And that was an interesting shift that I thought, boy, you’re going to finally get some relief. Your child is going to be taken care of, they’re going to be doing well. And then they crashed and I think it caught everybody off guard. So I think it’s hard to transition away from being the daily parent, responsible executive functioning for their child.
Speaker A: Yeah. And if they are actually going to be a better support to your young adult transition into adulthood. If you have your own life, you’re having joy, you’re having community, you’re getting your needs met, you’re actually going to be able to help support them so much better than if you’re anxious waiting for them to call and wondering what they’re doing every second and going to worst case scenario, what if this happens? What if that happens? Catastrophizing that’s just not a good place to put yourself in as a parent.
Speaker B: It’S really helpful if parents can remove themselves from the equation so that the child stops being the child. And that’s hard if there’s nowhere safe to send them, or scary if you’re used to protecting them. And you can’t anymore, for sure.
Speaker C: One of the things that happened this past week in our parent group that I love, and I think it just speaks to finding that community. We’ve been running this parent group once a week since the beginning of the pandemic. So we’re 400 meetings and at this point something like that. And the parents that are all coming to our Alternative to College fair coming up on March 4, those that have signed up, they all wanted to meet in person because they’ve never met in person. We’ve been on Zoom this whole time.
Speaker B: Sure.
Speaker C: So they have created this community that they’re going to go and have lunch, meet up, whatever they’re going to do. And I just thought that was so great because it took having all of these weekly meetings and getting to know each other virtually, and now there’s a safe place to go and compare notes, right. And their kids are different, and it’s not going to be, oh, well, that works for my kid, and that works for my kid. But there’s now this connection, and they can have that real life community.
Speaker B: Once parents learn that they can let go of the control that they’ve always had to have, it’s such a great thing for them and also scary. And I think talking to a counselor or other people that have been through it is actually really important. So that your identity, which is now taken away, doesn’t crash so bad that your marriage crumbles or your own self worth doesn’t crumble if you don’t know who you are anymore. Because you’re no longer the parent of a child who struggled. I think that’s a hard thing and it needs to be intentional. Be thinking about, I’m going to do these things, I’m going to rekindle friendships, passions, interests, hobbies, talents, whatever they’re into and be intentional about that. Otherwise, I think they find themselves depressed quite often.
Speaker A: Well, and that is keeping yourself emotionally charged healthy, because you are still going to need to be a support. There are going to be things that come up with your young adult that are autistic. Like hands down, there’s always going to be stuff. They’re going to need ongoing support, and we have to keep our self fueled so that we can be there for the long game. We’re not going to be as intensely involved, but they’re going to rely on us, and we’re going to be able to keep a healthy balance of that and appropriate boundaries if we’re getting our emotional needs met in other ways than just our kids.
Speaker C: Well, and I think sometimes it’s re exploring those things too, because if you’ve put yourself on the back burner for 18-20 years it may be a time of growth for the parent too, to go and wow, I really like whatever it is. I’m really into dance now. I didn’t know that about myself and being open to making that exploration as well.
Speaker B: Yeah, I think it is similar to Empty Nesters with a lot more intensity and magnification. The jolt of the system is a lot harder. So it’s an interesting process and I think a support group with people who get you is really important.
Speaker A: I just want to let our listeners know that you can find out more about Shayna. You can go to her website, preparetobloom.com, and then there’s also Collegealternative.org to learn more about the Alt Fair and you can reach out to her and also follow Shayna on Instagram and Facebook. The social media is prepare to bloom. That’s how to find you and follow you. Learn more about the support group that she offers and the different things that she has going on. So we really appreciate you being on with us. And is there anything else?
Speaker B: Yeah, anything?
Speaker A: Any other thoughts?
Speaker B: Tell us what you love. Tell us one thing about what you love about your job. It’s your favorite thing and we can finish up.
Speaker C: Well, my favorite thing about my job is helping families find a path forward and being a source of hope. The last thing, though, that I want to say, I want to put a plug in for the Alt Fair. So coming up March 4 in Palo Alto, we have our alternative to college fair. It’s free for families to come and check out and meet different programs for young adults. Techie for Life is going to be there and so we look forward to seeing everybody there. You can find out more on Collegealternative.org.
Speaker B: Great, thank you. Yeah, we will be there. Debbie and I will be there. And so if anybody’s listening to podcast wants to come in, that’d be great.
Speaker A: We’ve had listeners come before and find us.
Speaker B: Well, thanks, Shayna.
Speaker A: Thank you so much.
Speaker B: We love what you do and we think you do a great job.
Speaker C: Thank you, guys.
Speaker A: Take care, everyone. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Autism and Neurodiversity with Jason and Debbie. If you want to learn more about our work, come visit us at JasonDebbie.com, that’s JasonDebbie.com.
